Discussion:
ASPI
(too old to reply)
Martin Vorbrodt
2005-10-18 02:39:51 UTC
Permalink
What is the state of ASPI? Adapted dropped support? Anyone still developing
latest/greatest drivers/support? Please advise.

Martin
Rob Turk
2005-10-18 05:59:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
What is the state of ASPI? Adapted dropped support? Anyone still
developing latest/greatest drivers/support? Please advise.
Martin
ASPI is history. Adaptec has not supported ASPI on WindowsXP since it came
out, and I believe even under Windows 2000 it was in the 'not recommended'
category. Some applications come with their own ASPI implementation (Nero I
think..) but I think that will slowly die too.

Rob
Martin Vorbrodt
2005-10-18 16:01:31 UTC
Permalink
What then? Is there an equivalent replacement? SCSI Pass-Through maybe? How
else can I do SCSI on Windows then?

Martin
Post by Rob Turk
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
What is the state of ASPI? Adapted dropped support? Anyone still
developing latest/greatest drivers/support? Please advise.
Martin
ASPI is history. Adaptec has not supported ASPI on WindowsXP since it came
out, and I believe even under Windows 2000 it was in the 'not recommended'
category. Some applications come with their own ASPI implementation (Nero I
think..) but I think that will slowly die too.
Rob
Rob Turk
2005-10-18 18:08:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
What then? Is there an equivalent replacement? SCSI Pass-Through maybe? How
else can I do SCSI on Windows then?
Martin
There's always SPTI, the Windows native SCSI passthrough mechanism. It's
documented in the Windows SDK. I've written C libraries to access SCSI
devices on Windows (both through ASPI and SPTI, but also Solaris, AIX,
Linux, MacOS-X with the same API), if you're interested in purchasing a
license you can send me an e-mail off-list.

Rob
Martin Vorbrodt
2005-10-18 19:43:29 UTC
Permalink
Is there no other alternative? Your library? Other libraries? What does your
library use? What about future support? Will ASPI run on Vista? XP-64?

From what I read, SPTI isn't very good... doesn't it require administrative
privilages to be used? It is a part of the DDK, not SDK right?

About your library... do you have a web page? More information on it?
Licencing? My company might be interested ( more info to
***@mac.com ).

Martin
Post by Rob Turk
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
What then? Is there an equivalent replacement? SCSI Pass-Through maybe? How
else can I do SCSI on Windows then?
Martin
There's always SPTI, the Windows native SCSI passthrough mechanism. It's
documented in the Windows SDK. I've written C libraries to access SCSI
devices on Windows (both through ASPI and SPTI, but also Solaris, AIX,
Linux, MacOS-X with the same API), if you're interested in purchasing a
license you can send me an e-mail off-list.
Rob
The Moojit
2005-10-19 01:04:57 UTC
Permalink
Not true. SPTI should do everything you need. Mr. Turk's library will save
you much time, SPTI is not straight forward.

The Moojit
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
Is there no other alternative? Your library? Other libraries? What does your
library use? What about future support? Will ASPI run on Vista? XP-64?
From what I read, SPTI isn't very good... doesn't it require
administrative
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
privilages to be used? It is a part of the DDK, not SDK right?
About your library... do you have a web page? More information on it?
Licencing? My company might be interested ( more info to
Martin
Post by Rob Turk
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
What then? Is there an equivalent replacement? SCSI Pass-Through
maybe?
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
Post by Rob Turk
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
How
else can I do SCSI on Windows then?
Martin
There's always SPTI, the Windows native SCSI passthrough mechanism. It's
documented in the Windows SDK. I've written C libraries to access SCSI
devices on Windows (both through ASPI and SPTI, but also Solaris, AIX,
Linux, MacOS-X with the same API), if you're interested in purchasing a
license you can send me an e-mail off-list.
Rob
Folkert Rienstra
2005-10-19 23:19:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Moojit
Not true.
Not true what, topposter?
Post by The Moojit
SPTI should do everything you need. Mr. Turk's library will save
you much time, SPTI is not straight forward.
The Moojit
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
Is there no other alternative? Your library? Other libraries? What does your
library use? What about future support? Will ASPI run on Vista? XP-64?
From what I read, SPTI isn't very good... doesn't it require administrative
privilages to be used? It is a part of the DDK, not SDK right?
About your library... do you have a web page? More information on it?
Licencing? My company might be interested ( more info to
Martin
Post by Rob Turk
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
What then? Is there an equivalent replacement? SCSI Pass-Through maybe? How
else can I do SCSI on Windows then?
Martin
There's always SPTI, the Windows native SCSI passthrough mechanism. It's
documented in the Windows SDK. I've written C libraries to access SCSI
devices on Windows (both through ASPI and SPTI, but also Solaris, AIX,
Linux, MacOS-X with the same API), if you're interested in purchasing a
license you can send me an e-mail off-list.
Rob
Don Matthews
2005-10-20 16:38:32 UTC
Permalink
Folkert,

I'm not entirely sure what the other poster meant by that "not true" remark either, but I think it was in response to something that
the original poster, Martin, had said about SPTI "not being very good". If so, then I agree with you, that's not true at all. SPTI
is, in fact, a great interface. As you know, it is the "native language", if you will, for communicating with SCSI devices on NT
and beyond. It is architected into Windows, and is the recommended way of designing new applications that send custom commands to
SCSI devices (including SATA, Fibre Channel, iSCSI, USB, 1394, etc.).

But ... it's non-trivial to work with. It has some quirks that are only discovered after many hours of programming. The
applications that use it must be run from an Admin account. It does not support asynchronous completion. It's not well-documented.
So there are actually some downsides that can cost developers that are new to the topic a *lot* of time.

ASPI is simply a different interface spec for sending SCSI commands. It has been around for much longer, and is much simpler to
use. And there are a *lot* of applications still out there in the field that use ASPI.

So is ASPI dead? Absolutely not. What people seem to have a hard time understanding is that the "interface" is not the same thing
as a particular "implementation" of that interface. These are two very different things, and once you make that distinction, it
becomes clear that some vendor's "implementations" are indeed dead. And as new applications are written, developers may
increasingly choose not to use the ASPI spec for that very reason. But that does not necessarily make the ASPI interface spec
itself dead, right?

For example, the most pervasive implementation of ASPI comes from Adaptec. But it has some problems, and there are some support
issues, etc. So as a result of that, many vendors, including my company, have written alternative *implementations* of the ASPI
spec.

Rob's product is similar, although it sounds more like his product uses his own custom interface, not ASPI. That's fine, too, if
that's what the customer wants. And it probably works great, because Rob has been around for awhile, and knows his stuff. But if
the customer already has an app that has been written to the ASPI spec, and simply wants to convert it so that it now uses SPTI,
then what the customer really needs is an ASPI Emulation Layer, not a new custom interface.

The NexiTech ASPI Emulation driver converts ASPI to SPTI, solves the Admin-only problem, works with more devices than most other
ASPI implementations (iSCSI / SCSI / SATA / FC / USB / 1394), and is easy to license. Source code is available. There is even a
VxD-based Win9X version.

I've had customers tell me that they went out and did their homework and got quotes from driver experts on what it would take to
build something like this from scratch. They typically say something on the order of 500 hours. I'm also one such driver expert,
and I agree completely. It could take at least that long, maybe longer, for someone to start from scratch and roll their own and
get something that is production quality software. You do the math. If it's a "make" vs. "buy" decision, it can certainly be a lot
more affordable to just license a library from someone like Rob or me, rather than creating it yourself.

Thanks,
Don


Don Matthews
President
NexiTech, Inc.
719-687-3225
***@nexitech.com
www.nexitech.com
Post by Folkert Rienstra
Post by The Moojit
Not true.
Not true what, topposter?
Post by The Moojit
SPTI should do everything you need. Mr. Turk's library will save
you much time, SPTI is not straight forward.
The Moojit
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
Is there no other alternative? Your library? Other libraries? What does your
library use? What about future support? Will ASPI run on Vista? XP-64?
From what I read, SPTI isn't very good... doesn't it require administrative
privilages to be used? It is a part of the DDK, not SDK right?
About your library... do you have a web page? More information on it?
Licencing? My company might be interested ( more info to
Martin
Post by Rob Turk
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
What then? Is there an equivalent replacement? SCSI Pass-Through maybe? How
else can I do SCSI on Windows then?
Martin
There's always SPTI, the Windows native SCSI passthrough mechanism. It's
documented in the Windows SDK. I've written C libraries to access SCSI
devices on Windows (both through ASPI and SPTI, but also Solaris, AIX,
Linux, MacOS-X with the same API), if you're interested in purchasing a
license you can send me an e-mail off-list.
Rob
Martin Vorbrodt
2005-10-20 18:31:50 UTC
Permalink
Well then...
Is there a way to keep using ASPI and still think about the future?
Are there any companies still supporting the standard and releasing new
versions of ASPI DLL's?
Does it make sense for me to develop a SCSI framework around ASPI and expect
it to work five years from now?

Thanks!

Martin
Post by Don Matthews
Folkert,
I'm not entirely sure what the other poster meant by that "not true"
remark either, but I think it was in response to something that
Post by Don Matthews
the original poster, Martin, had said about SPTI "not being very good".
If so, then I agree with you, that's not true at all. SPTI
Post by Don Matthews
is, in fact, a great interface. As you know, it is the "native language",
if you will, for communicating with SCSI devices on NT
Post by Don Matthews
and beyond. It is architected into Windows, and is the recommended way of
designing new applications that send custom commands to
Post by Don Matthews
SCSI devices (including SATA, Fibre Channel, iSCSI, USB, 1394, etc.).
But ... it's non-trivial to work with. It has some quirks that are only
discovered after many hours of programming. The
Post by Don Matthews
applications that use it must be run from an Admin account. It does not
support asynchronous completion. It's not well-documented.
Post by Don Matthews
So there are actually some downsides that can cost developers that are new
to the topic a *lot* of time.
Post by Don Matthews
ASPI is simply a different interface spec for sending SCSI commands. It
has been around for much longer, and is much simpler to
Post by Don Matthews
use. And there are a *lot* of applications still out there in the field that use ASPI.
So is ASPI dead? Absolutely not. What people seem to have a hard time
understanding is that the "interface" is not the same thing
Post by Don Matthews
as a particular "implementation" of that interface. These are two very
different things, and once you make that distinction, it
Post by Don Matthews
becomes clear that some vendor's "implementations" are indeed dead. And
as new applications are written, developers may
Post by Don Matthews
increasingly choose not to use the ASPI spec for that very reason. But
that does not necessarily make the ASPI interface spec
Post by Don Matthews
itself dead, right?
For example, the most pervasive implementation of ASPI comes from Adaptec.
But it has some problems, and there are some support
Post by Don Matthews
issues, etc. So as a result of that, many vendors, including my company,
have written alternative *implementations* of the ASPI
Post by Don Matthews
spec.
Rob's product is similar, although it sounds more like his product uses
his own custom interface, not ASPI. That's fine, too, if
Post by Don Matthews
that's what the customer wants. And it probably works great, because Rob
has been around for awhile, and knows his stuff. But if
Post by Don Matthews
the customer already has an app that has been written to the ASPI spec,
and simply wants to convert it so that it now uses SPTI,
Post by Don Matthews
then what the customer really needs is an ASPI Emulation Layer, not a new custom interface.
The NexiTech ASPI Emulation driver converts ASPI to SPTI, solves the
Admin-only problem, works with more devices than most other
Post by Don Matthews
ASPI implementations (iSCSI / SCSI / SATA / FC / USB / 1394), and is easy
to license. Source code is available. There is even a
Post by Don Matthews
VxD-based Win9X version.
I've had customers tell me that they went out and did their homework and
got quotes from driver experts on what it would take to
Post by Don Matthews
build something like this from scratch. They typically say something on
the order of 500 hours. I'm also one such driver expert,
Post by Don Matthews
and I agree completely. It could take at least that long, maybe longer,
for someone to start from scratch and roll their own and
Post by Don Matthews
get something that is production quality software. You do the math. If
it's a "make" vs. "buy" decision, it can certainly be a lot
Post by Don Matthews
more affordable to just license a library from someone like Rob or me,
rather than creating it yourself.
Post by Don Matthews
Thanks,
Don
Don Matthews
President
NexiTech, Inc.
719-687-3225
www.nexitech.com
Post by Folkert Rienstra
Post by The Moojit
Not true.
Not true what, topposter?
Post by The Moojit
SPTI should do everything you need. Mr. Turk's library will save
you much time, SPTI is not straight forward.
The Moojit
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
Is there no other alternative? Your library? Other libraries? What does your
library use? What about future support? Will ASPI run on Vista? XP-64?
From what I read, SPTI isn't very good... doesn't it require administrative
privilages to be used? It is a part of the DDK, not SDK right?
About your library... do you have a web page? More information on it?
Licencing? My company might be interested ( more info to
Martin
Post by Rob Turk
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
What then? Is there an equivalent replacement? SCSI Pass-Through
maybe?
Post by Don Matthews
Post by Folkert Rienstra
Post by The Moojit
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
Post by Rob Turk
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
How
else can I do SCSI on Windows then?
Martin
There's always SPTI, the Windows native SCSI passthrough mechanism. It's
documented in the Windows SDK. I've written C libraries to access SCSI
devices on Windows (both through ASPI and SPTI, but also Solaris, AIX,
Linux, MacOS-X with the same API), if you're interested in purchasing a
license you can send me an e-mail off-list.
Rob
Don Matthews
2005-10-20 21:50:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
Well then...
Is there a way to keep using ASPI and still think about the future?
Are there any companies still supporting the standard and releasing new
versions of ASPI DLL's?
Does it make sense for me to develop a SCSI framework around ASPI and expect
it to work five years from now?
Thanks!
Martin
Martin,

I can only speak for my own ASPI Emulation product, and with respect to that, the answer is "Yes" to all those questions. I've been
in the business of selling and supporting an ASPI Emulation software product since 1999, and have no reason to believe that I will
not be doing so for another 5 years as long as there is customer demand.

But I have to stop now, or else pretty soon someone out there is going to yell at me for "advertising" in a newsgoup, and that was
not my intent when I got into this. I was just trying to answer your questions to the best of my ability, so please feel free to
contact me off-line for more details. And don't forget that you've got options, including Rob's non-ASPI library that he mentioned
previously here in this same thread. I'm not trying to imply that mine is the only solution. It's a good one, but it's not the
only one.

Best Regards,
Don


Don Matthews
President
NexiTech, Inc.
719-687-3225
***@nexitech.com
www.nexitech.com
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
Post by Don Matthews
Folkert,
I'm not entirely sure what the other poster meant by that "not true"
remark either, but I think it was in response to something that
Post by Don Matthews
the original poster, Martin, had said about SPTI "not being very good".
If so, then I agree with you, that's not true at all. SPTI
Post by Don Matthews
is, in fact, a great interface. As you know, it is the "native language",
if you will, for communicating with SCSI devices on NT
Post by Don Matthews
and beyond. It is architected into Windows, and is the recommended way of
designing new applications that send custom commands to
Post by Don Matthews
SCSI devices (including SATA, Fibre Channel, iSCSI, USB, 1394, etc.).
But ... it's non-trivial to work with. It has some quirks that are only
discovered after many hours of programming. The
Post by Don Matthews
applications that use it must be run from an Admin account. It does not
support asynchronous completion. It's not well-documented.
Post by Don Matthews
So there are actually some downsides that can cost developers that are new
to the topic a *lot* of time.
Post by Don Matthews
ASPI is simply a different interface spec for sending SCSI commands. It
has been around for much longer, and is much simpler to
Post by Don Matthews
use. And there are a *lot* of applications still out there in the field
that use ASPI.
Post by Don Matthews
So is ASPI dead? Absolutely not. What people seem to have a hard time
understanding is that the "interface" is not the same thing
Post by Don Matthews
as a particular "implementation" of that interface. These are two very
different things, and once you make that distinction, it
Post by Don Matthews
becomes clear that some vendor's "implementations" are indeed dead. And
as new applications are written, developers may
Post by Don Matthews
increasingly choose not to use the ASPI spec for that very reason. But
that does not necessarily make the ASPI interface spec
Post by Don Matthews
itself dead, right?
For example, the most pervasive implementation of ASPI comes from Adaptec.
But it has some problems, and there are some support
Post by Don Matthews
issues, etc. So as a result of that, many vendors, including my company,
have written alternative *implementations* of the ASPI
Post by Don Matthews
spec.
Rob's product is similar, although it sounds more like his product uses
his own custom interface, not ASPI. That's fine, too, if
Post by Don Matthews
that's what the customer wants. And it probably works great, because Rob
has been around for awhile, and knows his stuff. But if
Post by Don Matthews
the customer already has an app that has been written to the ASPI spec,
and simply wants to convert it so that it now uses SPTI,
Post by Don Matthews
then what the customer really needs is an ASPI Emulation Layer, not a new
custom interface.
Post by Don Matthews
The NexiTech ASPI Emulation driver converts ASPI to SPTI, solves the
Admin-only problem, works with more devices than most other
Post by Don Matthews
ASPI implementations (iSCSI / SCSI / SATA / FC / USB / 1394), and is easy
to license. Source code is available. There is even a
Post by Don Matthews
VxD-based Win9X version.
I've had customers tell me that they went out and did their homework and
got quotes from driver experts on what it would take to
Post by Don Matthews
build something like this from scratch. They typically say something on
the order of 500 hours. I'm also one such driver expert,
Post by Don Matthews
and I agree completely. It could take at least that long, maybe longer,
for someone to start from scratch and roll their own and
Post by Don Matthews
get something that is production quality software. You do the math. If
it's a "make" vs. "buy" decision, it can certainly be a lot
Post by Don Matthews
more affordable to just license a library from someone like Rob or me,
rather than creating it yourself.
Post by Don Matthews
Thanks,
Don
Don Matthews
President
NexiTech, Inc.
719-687-3225
www.nexitech.com
Post by Folkert Rienstra
Post by The Moojit
Not true.
Not true what, topposter?
Post by The Moojit
SPTI should do everything you need. Mr. Turk's library will save
you much time, SPTI is not straight forward.
The Moojit
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
Is there no other alternative? Your library? Other libraries? What
does your
Post by Don Matthews
Post by Folkert Rienstra
Post by The Moojit
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
library use? What about future support? Will ASPI run on Vista?
XP-64?
Post by Don Matthews
Post by Folkert Rienstra
Post by The Moojit
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
From what I read, SPTI isn't very good... doesn't it require
administrative
Post by Don Matthews
Post by Folkert Rienstra
Post by The Moojit
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
privilages to be used? It is a part of the DDK, not SDK right?
About your library... do you have a web page? More information on it?
Licencing? My company might be interested ( more info to
Martin
Post by Rob Turk
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
What then? Is there an equivalent replacement? SCSI Pass-Through
maybe?
Post by Don Matthews
Post by Folkert Rienstra
Post by The Moojit
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
Post by Rob Turk
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
How
else can I do SCSI on Windows then?
Martin
There's always SPTI, the Windows native SCSI passthrough mechanism.
It's
Post by Don Matthews
Post by Folkert Rienstra
Post by The Moojit
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
Post by Rob Turk
documented in the Windows SDK. I've written C libraries to access
SCSI
Post by Don Matthews
Post by Folkert Rienstra
Post by The Moojit
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
Post by Rob Turk
devices on Windows (both through ASPI and SPTI, but also Solaris,
AIX,
Post by Don Matthews
Post by Folkert Rienstra
Post by The Moojit
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
Post by Rob Turk
Linux, MacOS-X with the same API), if you're interested in
purchasing a
Post by Don Matthews
Post by Folkert Rienstra
Post by The Moojit
Post by Martin Vorbrodt
Post by Rob Turk
license you can send me an e-mail off-list.
Rob
KOOLER
2005-10-23 11:56:34 UTC
Permalink
As one one the NexiTech customers I can confirm this. Excellent
product. Outstanding support.
If you still need Windows 9x with your software and want to stick with
the same API for SCSI, ATAPI,
USB & FireWire - I'd go ASPI... Never heard anything about Rob Turk's
stuff but it would nice to give it a try :)

Regards,
Anton Kolomyeytsev

CEO, Rocket Division Software

www.rocketdivision.com

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